Brainstorming the Garrison!

I believe that garrisons are designed about as far as the slides and screenshots we saw come out of Blizzcon. At one point a panel developer even said that they had not fully designed the feature in response to a question from a player.

SOOOO.....

Let's help them out! 

We can put our heads together and brainstorm some ideas for garrisons. You may recall at the last Blizzcon LeCraft invited Engineers to post their ideas for new recipes on the forums. We took that invitation and ran with it to come up with ideas for all the professions. I think we should do the same here. Let's throw out a bunch of ideas and vote on them to pull out the best ones. Then I'll take our ideas to the official forums and post them for Blizzard folks to read.

Let me remind you in broad terms what we know so far:

  • Limited access to professions we don't have via garrisons
  • Access to bank items when crafting
  • Stack sizes to be increased (no numbers given)
  • Offline collection of materials via followers
  • New recipes may be discovered via garrisons (no details on how)
It was specifically said that the use of garrisons would probably not allow non-blacksmiths to craft epic items. Other than that nothing has been fleshed out. This is our opportunity to share opinions on how we would like that feature to work (non-profession crafting).

My thoughts - perhaps non profession crafting could be limited to trainer recipes. Perhaps the mats would be significantly higher if crafted by a non-professional toon. I don't believe that any player should be able to make the best recipes for a profession they don't have. I might be willing to consider it if they had a much higher cost for doing it. 

For example my warrior wants to make a BoP item from Blacksmithing and is willing to fork over 2x or 3x the mats to have it (dual wield Lunar Crescent yo!). Since this is an obscure item that she has no chance of getting unless she drops Engineering and levels Blacksmithing, I could see an argument for allowing this. The same would be true for Engineering, let my other toons craft an awesome looking tinker helm for transmog but it costs me 3x the mats to make it for them.

Also, we've had comments about gathering via garrisons. While there is a convenience factor here, I think we should acknowledge that Blizzard probably doesn't want us getting all our materials this way. So maybe we should brainstorm ideas about where that line should be.

Ok people --- DISCUSS!
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35 comments:

  1. I'd like garrisons to be "account wide" in some way (unless they want to kill off alts). Dont make me level more than one garrison.
    I'd like to be able to fully access my alts' professions via my garrison. an instant "work order" that my alt would fulfill for me.

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    1. Yes please! The first Tillers can be fun, but grinding rep on alts is a royal pain.

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    2. While account wide Garrison's might sound appealing, think of it from the other side, having only one Garrison will limit how much resources your followers can gather, how many rare recipes or resources can they get and not to mention if there are several areas where Garrisons can be built, I am assuming some might have access to things that other might not (this is just my speculation) building a Garrison in one area would not allow you to explore that aspect of it. So while maintaining multiple garrisons would involve some extra work, it has the potential to grant you access to more resources/professions and overall a larger number of followers apart from whatever benefit you get from having a Garrison in multiple areas.

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    3. I think they could give us the ability to unlock garrison buildings and upgrades on one toon and purchase a token/commendation that we can use to unlock the same building/upgrade on another toon. Surely they can give us some type of speed boost or other perk for unlocking content the first time that we can use to ease the burden on subsequent characters.

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    4. Ok, for a totally off the wall concept, put the Warcraft back into WOW and have an interface that allows interest players to attack each others garrisons.

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    5. That idea was suggested at Blizzcon but I don't think the developers responded positively to it, I don't recall exactly what was said. I wouldn't mind this actually if it involved strategic defense and wasn't just a mano-a-mano gankfest. I think it could be tricky to implement since the garrisons are going to be phased. How would you attack something you couldn't see unless you were grouped with the owner? I don't have any brilliant ideas there.

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    6. I believe they would be stuck with making it account wide otherwise you will be forced to make as many alts as possible to keep up with the rest of the market. 10 level 100 alts having slaves farm will be way more valuable than a single or even 9 level 100 alt with little play time to keep up.

      If they don't make it account wide they would have to put restrictions on everything. It is something they love doing but it's painful and annoying to hit the restriction wall all the time. It makes for first come players to dominate the crafting market.

      The Tillers is kind of the same thing but it doesn't affect the market on the scale that the Garrison will. Gold farming companies will 100% exploit the Garrison if Blizzard allows every alt to make one.


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    7. True the gold farmers are already plotting on how to exploit this. Hopefully the higher level cap and the ability to jump a character to 90 will kill more of their business.
      Even an account wide garrison will affect the market because players will have some access to professions they don't have, though not as much as one for every alt.
      I am curious if Blizzard gave any time frame of when this expansion will release.

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    8. I rechecked your earlier post and found the 6-9 month time frame. I also saw the figure of 10,000 gold for the garrison pictured. I am not a hard core marketing person so it will be a challenge to
      scrape that together for one character, and if they allow each character to have one, than the hardcore marketers and the gold farmers will really dominate the market. Are they planning on a cost for all buildings? If so what do you feel would be a fair price range?

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    9. Leveling another garrison (sunk cost) seems reasonable to be able to access additional slave labor (followers). In terms of daily effort to make sure the followers keep working, some sort of queuing system for short assignments, perpetual assignments (go into that mine and don't come back until I get you), or long term assignments most of the time seems to the best way to keep everyone working.

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  2. I'd definitely say that any crafted gear you're able to make via your Garrison should be either BOP or at most BOA.

    I'd also love to see the gathering expanded to Secondary professions, especially Archaelogy. We'll surely see it expanded again, and I'd bet we'll see Orges and Arrakoa given their own branches, plus, hopefully, more Orc and Draenei artifacts. But sometimes I don't feel like flying all around creation to get shards. It'd be nice to delegate that gruntwork to my peons... err, followers.

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  3. Id like to see it restricted to lower quality items. Eg for jewelcrafting they can cut only green quality gems, and not be able to achieve perfect cuts. Jewel crafting will be destroyed as a profession if they can cut the best gems.

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  4. The mats they gather should also not be trade-able on the AH.

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  5. Has there been any mention of Reputation or factions connected with the Quests, Scenarios, Dungeons or Raids? I could see the team of Followers raising the Player's rep with a faction by doing missions assocoiated with or directly for a faction.

    Not a lot so that characters without Garrisons or using their Follower teams for other missions wouldn't be screwed, but with so many recipes / patterns / formulas / etc tied to Revered or Exalted standing with a faction, it would be intriguing to incorporate our Garrisons and Followers into making that grind a bit easier or smoother if not necessarily faster.

    For instance, either the player or her Followers could complete the daily quest, not both, thereby preventing double earning for rep that day.

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    1. I've heard no discussion on factions although I hope they learned in MoP that we don't want crazy grinds anymore. I thought that idea died in Vanilla and I was sad that it got resurrected. I could see using followers to progress factions as a reasonable extension of the Tiller work order concept we got in MoP.

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  6. I hope that owning a "Tinker's Garage" will allow you to use engineer gear and tinkers.

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    1. I'd also like my followers to do all my milling/prospecting for me.

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  7. For gathering materials, it only makes sense that the NPC's could only gather mats available in the zone the garrison is in (IMO).

    For NPC crafting, I would tie that to the PC's best profession skill, modified by size and number of crafting buildings for that profession. Initial suggestion: max skill and buildings = blue level 100 gear, one building = green gear, no buildings (but NPC skill) = green gear for level 80, then shrink that down accordingly if the PC's best profession skill isn't maxed. An additional minus would be for professions totally unrelated to the PC's, tailoring for a miner being an example.

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    1. LOVE this idea -- garrisons that scale as you improve them is a great way to deal with item quality. Those of us who put the time and work into leveling our followers and our buildings will reap more benefit while those who do the bare minimum will get less out of them. I also like the idea that the players skill level could be a factor in the production.

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    2. yes, pc skill, building and follower level should alter output.

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  8. Wow great post.

    so my wish list

    1. Account wide garrison but character based followers. In other words, your garrison levels with your account. So whatever means they will use to level the garrison to allow you to build the next level buildings. I don't want to "level" 9 garrisons.
    However, I also don't want accounts limited to only one set of followers.

    2. Followers tied to specific characters. If you have max level Mining for example on your character, your followers should inherit at least part of that skill as being "learned" from that character.
    Likewise my tailor could "teach" other tailoring followers to run errands to find mats or recipes

    3. Allow gathering of more than just ore. The farm did a great job of allowing you to gather leather, ore, cloth, etc So...having a skinner building where you could gather leather would be awesome

    4. allow followers to gain rep for you on missions.. Reputation leveling is one of the more painful tedious things in the game. I get that the devs want to intentionally drag it out, and I'm fine with that, but I shouldn't need to do the same quest 94 times in a row?

    5. First Aid is one of the skills with no love..Make it useful again. Have a hospital or infirmary building where you can learn more advanced healing

    6. ARCHEOLOGY - everyone likes the toys, nobody liked the flying around dying trying to gather nodes. Allow the garrison to have a "library" where you can gather fragments, much like you gather ore, cloth etc

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    1. All great ideas and I'll make sure to include each of them in the poll. I see a number of folks bringing up rep grinding so I hope the Devs get the message that we don't love it. The whole gated/timed progression with garrisons should be a workable option for rep grinding - we still can't power it up in a few days but at least it could spare us the repetitive questing.

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  9. yes I would like to see tillers represented at the garrisons

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    1. They mentioned a farm as one of the initial things in a garrison. Perhaps Sunsong Ranch 2.0?

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  10. In SWTOR, the companions have slight efficiency differences, but know all skills you do and none you don't. Now Blizz has said they want garrison companions to open up professions your main does not. Does that mean they will have to learn profs you already know? Will a 450 JC need to level their companions how to JC?
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    Even if you have to level each alts garrisons, I would really like to do it without logging in/out which can take quite some time. I.e., send my account companions into action without having to logout out then back into the next account to send their companions on tasks.

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  11. Ofc companions for prospecting and smelting but especially milling/inking.

    I love the companion system in SWTOR so I am really looking forward to seeing what WoW does.

    There are two "banks" features in other MMOs and I am not quite sure which Blizzard meant. One is what SWTOR introduced in 2011 - crafting will use materials from your toon's bank if you have insufficient/none in your bags. Very helpful. The other is shared banks that several MMOs and D3 have - you don't have to keep mailing copper from your blacksmith to engineer to JC; there is an account bank. Simmilarly if you have a half dozen scribes and alchemists for the c/d, then you don't have to use the mail to shuffle materials around. I hope they will catch up on both fronts.

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    The strategic decision is: is this an alternative advancement or just an time sink at max levels? I.e. pet battles are nicely alternative. You raiding is not impacted if you don't pet battle; but your pet battle is not impacted if you don't raid. Similarly, people greatly resist when you need to pvp to get pve gear or vice versa.

    Alas, crafting has never been accorded that importance. You need to be near (Twightlight Highland recipes) or at max level (most including farm) or max plus rep (bag recipe). In SWTOR, RIFT, LotRO, et al you can get your very low level crafter to max level. Most even award xp for crafting.

    So I would really like for someone to be able to work on their garrison even if they do not do max level content but especially not require max level group content. Your pve, pvp, crafting and garrison progression should be independent.

    Can a player say "I am going to come back to WoW for garrisons and crafting" or are they just something that a max level character works on when they are out of rep grinds for the day.
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    Another decision is what are the roles of alts in WoW? GC tweeting about being unsure about crafting alts. Should there be an advantage (cool downs) with having 6 transmutation alchemists and 6 scribes? SoH and rep grinds made that much more of a hassle in MoP. Having decided whether crafting alts were a good thing (they could just grant all your characters any profession you know), then the garrison should reflect that. Should someone with 11 alts working on garrisons get 11 times the output? grind the garrison up 11 times?
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    99% of the stuff I crafted was for resale so I don't understand or support the desire for garrisons to produce bop gear/mats. That would mean you still had to do it the old fashioned way.

    Considering all the herb/mining bots, I am not so sure that garrisons being the primary source for ore/herbs would be that bad. Especially if WoD is not going to have personal nodes like GW2. A profession like mining where someone can mine the node I am fighting on is quite annoying gameplay.
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    I like a system where crafts proc but experience matters. This allows Pat the PvPer who does not like crafting to produce anything but the crafter who put the time into it has a much higher chance so is the goto person for people in their guild/AH. Say the proc rate of someone who produced 64 is 20% better than someone who has produced 32.

    Your skill / success rate could go up not only from making stuff but also consuming it. SWOTR has reverse engineering (destroy something for a chance at learning a better pattern.) Or you could have things like repeatable turn in quest that takes 10 bars but adds 1% to your proc rate. So if you are really serious about the item you can help your self and if you are casual you can ignore it. So much better than a system when you have the pattern or not and especially having to raid to get pattern. Now you could "invest" in your garrison as well; spend some current effort/tokens/gold to improve future growth/return.

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  12. I would like to see a system where I'm not dedicating a whole lot of time like I do now on the Sunsong ranches. Right now it takes me several hours to rotate through all of my alts to harvest, craft, do cool downs and plant.

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  13. Hmm.. From the standpoint of pure greed (more for hoarding than market domination) I might like a garrison for each character. It would depend on the relationship between of how the followers interact with the buildings. Would a basic mine only allow one or two followers tasks or as many as you can spare? Would we limited to one mine, or could my jewelcrafter be able to load up on mines and miners to insure plenty of gems to cut? If building types are limited I would go for more than one garrison.

    I am not really in favor of allowing a blacksmith building to allow all my characters to equip blacksmith only armor/weapons, it takes away a lot of the pride of accomplishment of a character having reached a high crafting level and is not just an "alt". My engineer will be forever using the gyrocopter as a mount of choice because it clearly identifies him as an engineer.

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  14. they talked about the mine is it safe to assume i can also send people off to herb

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    1. I think so, I'm assuming that all of the gathering professions will be represented. I hope they do it like Sunsong Ranch where we can actually gather mats for any profession.

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  15. In AD&D, there were rules for 'lord' level characters to make a castle. One of the more interesting rules was that you could have useful NPC's that could assist with crafting items. So, if you have a building for 'your' profession, you could get a reduced cost (or output multiplier, similar to specialization). Perhaps even separate buildings that boost 'their' specialized track. However... these useful NPC's had to be paid. In DungeonKeeper, your minions also had to be paid regularly, and if you didn't have enough gold, they would break things and leave. As your minions went up in level, they got paid more. The same should apply here.
    Of course, you could have a building for that as well - it produces some gold every day. Blizzard has already stated that there will be a maximum amount of space available in a garrison, and that not everything will fit. So, a bank would reduce cost or even add gold to your total, but then you won't have as much space to use for other things.

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    1. EQ2 has crafting apprentices that allow for researching recipes, and a gathering minion, both without charge. The apprentice will have 5 or six recipes for every 10 of your crafting levels (there crafting levels the same as adventuring, and caps off at 95). A level 10 item will take about 3 days to research, level 90 about two weeks. This can be shortened by a small amount every day be giving advice and a crafting quest to make a piece of gear for it and will reward random crafting materials, potions or reactants (required in most of the research items, similar to spirits of harmony, though can't be grown).
      The gathering goblin is part of the skill prestige system. You get 5 points for each level in the 90 - 95 range. The balance is that there are three branches of the skill tree and not enough points to fill all. You are able to spend 1 to 5 points on the gathering goblin, with each point reducing the cool down between his summon times. ! point lets you call him for 10 minutes once per day, 5 points has no cool down. Each summon he will stick around for ten minutes of game time, but it takes two hours of real time for the gathering. So with 1 point you can still get a few harvest each day, by switching alts.
      EQ2 also has two sets of resource depots that can be used while crafting. The set that has been around the longest are the guild depots. While crafting in your guild's hall you have the option of using materials from the shared depot instead of your own inventory. It makes it much easier and cheaper to get your crafting far above your adventuring level. Also while you can craft from the depot, without permission you can't withdraw from it, so no worries about Ninja's joining a guild to rob all the rare gathers. They now also have personal depots for your houses that allow you to create a big pile for all your characters. There are separate ones for harvest materials, potions, adornments ( fits item slots like jems) and others. it is easy to pool your goodies and save a ton of bank space!

      Also in regards to alts, each character the reaches max level in crafting or adventuring gives a 20% boost to all you other characters. Combine that with the "rested" bonus and all your alts can catch up much easier.

      The part of DDO online that keeps me from really getting into it, is the lack of crafting, but that is staying true to the source, so I can't fault them for that. I can see that the garrisons are a good analogy for the AD&D castle and having to pay for services might be a balance for having many followers (except that I am greedy).

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  16. I'd like to have the ability to give my followers a letter of reference: in effect, transferring the follower to the garrison of my alt (or potentially another person in my guild's garrison). With followers having different traits and different qualities (epic, rare, etc.), getting two epic archaeologists might be a real bummer. I might be very happy to have one, but my guildmate (or alt) might never get an archaeologist depending on how much RNG is involved in acquiring followers. Some restrictions like within account or guild and a limit on how often a follower can transfer would be reasonable. Perhaps even a travel time to the next garrison depending how far away it is.

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  17. More of a question than a comment...

    Right now we have Naomi our cooking student.

    Anyone else think this might be the model they're going to look at using? If so... will it be rep gain possible to shorten training times - DMF buff etc; will we actually be sinking in mats early for a return later?

    Bliz tends to like models they've tried before (who else sees the same kind of leather scrap mechanic in the new herb/mine abilities in pandaria?) I suspect Naomi is the first one we're looking at for "crafting followers". I'm tempted to suggest that we look at "what would make her more useful" as a thread too...

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