LF Feedback on MoP Alchemy Recipe List

I don't normally do this, but I'm kind of in a pickle and I have to make a judgement call. Normally I would just do what feels right (or less wrong) to me personally but I thought this time I'd open it up to discussion :)

The Alchemy discovery system in MoP is kind of weird. Having only gone through the process once, I can't be 100% sure of my findings. I have some theories on the situation but I would need to level Alchemy a few more times to really solidify my data. I can't really do that in the Beta since we are limited to 5 character copies and I need to test other professions.

So what I want to open up for discussion is this: in a world where Alchemy recipes *may* not have a set skill level at which they are unlocked, how would you guys like to see this listed in the recipe chart? On top of this, what if we can't be certain what the lowest possible level is? Right now I'm toying with listing them all at 525. Another option is to list them at the skill level I discovered them in my test (possibly rounding to the nearest 5 point break). The bad part is that none of these options will mirror anyone's actual experience. So I'm not sure about the best way to provide information on these recipes without being misleading or just wrong.

For the record, some of the information on Wowhead is already wrong. I was able to discover 4 of the 5 flask recipes at 525 (they are listed at 550). I believe they built their list before the revamp of Alchemy (to the discovery system) and are showing the older data on the recipes. The color coding they have appears to be correct in the spot checks I've done. But I believe there may be some randomization in the system that allows you to learn recipes that are higher in the difficulty progression. I suspect there's also a cap to how many recipes you can unlock at a given skill level. And I've confirmed that sometimes you won't discover a particular recipe until it's already gray (this happened to me twice).

So what's the best way to label these recipes that so far look to be all over the place in terms of skill level needed to unlock? For Inscription, I listed discovery recipes at the skill level you learned the research recipe for it. I'm not convinced that's applicable here since the discovery process kicks in with the very first recipe you learn from the trainer and seems to apply to all of the other recipes.

Thoughts?

23 comments:

  1. My $0.02 is list them as Mist recipes with "Discovery" or similar rather than a specific breakpoint.

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    1. Well I have to put them somewhere in the chain, if I don't give them a number they will sort out to the top of the chart above the Vanilla recipes. That's why I think I would have to put them at 525 to indicate that they can be learned as early as the first skill point in the Zen tier. It sounds like that's roughly what you're going for.

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    2. I'm sorry, I missed that you needed a single sortable integer. nvm

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    3. No worries, I don't expect folks to fuss over things like that. This is such a weird situation that I'm having to rethink my normal data methods. I'm leaning toward the "lowest reported number" at this point just because I think readers will want to know that best-case scenario figure.

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    4. Listing it next to the lowest reported number seems like the best approach.

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  2. I would suggest something like Me536/WH550. Once WH/curse redatamine, we can't be sure what the "550" they publish means but I would be a lot more confident believing that a WH525 is more likely to occur prior to a WH550. Maybe the WH# is the median - you have very low chance of learning it 25 before it and quite high chance of learning it when you are 25 above it. I.e., the datamining should help predict order (useful for leveling) even if we are not sure hat exactly it means. Your number is even more useful; if you found it at 536 then it is demonstratively possible at 536.

    WH is great but their Beta information is not that accurate. ( Almost like this is Beta. ) I at least try to double-check wowdb. (FotE says 550 there as well.) I just checked WH for flask of the earth and the tooltip says 550. Which I interpret to mean you need 550 to learn it. So this raises a (typical for me tangential) question: is learning the spell a random level or the requirement for the spell learned random. I.e., it would be disorienting if you learned a spell at 525 and could make something that normally requires 550. If you learn a WH-says-550 flask at 525 and someone else learns it at 550, will their tooltip say 550 or 525? I assume yours says 525.

    I can't see your tooltip on the spell being per character. I can't see tooltip saying requires alch 550 if you discovered and can make it at 536.

    P.S.: golden lotuses dropping once a month, discoveries random and WH data wrong. RF Alchemist should be ... interesting.

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    1. I concur that there's likely a probability factor involved with when you learn an easy recipe vs. a hard one. I gamed the system a bit by making the 500 level recipes over and over until I stopped getting discoveries (well, until I made 10 in a row with no new discoveries). That's how I got the 4 flask recipes but I wouldn't expect a RF seeker to bother doing the same. I was just trying to see which recipes were possible to get at 525.

      I'm not certain that WH is reflective of the probability level though, since I was only able to unlock 1 of the 6 WH525 recipes with my 525 Alchemist. That's part of what makes me think there's another "volume" cap, meaning once I've unlocked a certain number of recipes at my current skill level, I'm not allowed to learn more until my skill increases.

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  3. As you said, I only have one attempt to level alchemy, so anything I say is liable to be wrong, but here's the theories I'm working under

    Unless there's something very unrandom (ghastly phrase) the likelyhood of learning something when there's something to learn is very high. I'm guessing 75%.

    I gained 16 skill lvls from 533-549 without learning anything, but once I hit that point, I started learning quickly again.

    I didn't learn any transmutes until I was over 550 skill. My first 2 were common to rare gems. I wish I recorded which ones and at which lvls.

    I believe only 3 flasks are learnable between 525-550. This might be random, but the ones I learned were Str/Agi/Int.

    The transmutes on the gems may be correct on Wowhead, I'd have to doublecheck that the 2 I learned are the 2 lowest there.


    Except for oddities like the Dessecrated Oil, I'd put everything as starting at either 525, 550, 575 or 600 and just report the lowest observed category anyone's seen.

    Here's a link to my earlier data. I made 20 more pots after posting this, but didn't think to record it. That was when I learned 2 gem transmutes. I'll check which ones when I can.

    http://kaliope.crafterstome.com/2012/08/mop-beta-files-first-look-at-zen_2.html?showComment=1344283814121#c4268420975146260170

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    1. Your experience seems to support my "volume" theory. You stopped learning new recipes until you went up 16 points, then you starting learning more recipes again. I also learned my first gem transmute post 550, so I'm guessing that's the floor for gems. I got lucky and learned the Ruby first =)

      My 525 Alchemist was able to learn the SPI/AGI/INT/STR plus one potion and two elixirs. Only one of the elixirs is listed as a 525 recipe, the other two are both listed as 550 recipes. I made 50 starter potions to unlock as many new recipes as I could before I kicked off the leveling process, but I could not get more than these seven recipes at 525. So I think there's some sort of maximum on how many discoveries you can make at each stage of progression. Once I started leveling Alchemy, I learned another 7 recipes between 529 and 547.

      I've reviewed your previous comment and it seems to mostly mirror my own attempt. I'm sitting at 590 now so I need to finalize my strat for the sprint to the end :)

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    2. How about shouting "Will trade Mekgineer Choppers for Golden Lotuses!"

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    3. Nah, I got a Plan B. Was just starting to test it when they shut down the Beta servers. Hopefully I'll be able to get that done tonight and write up the Alchemy post for tomorrow.

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  4. I just copied over my Alchy/scribe again to run tests with new system in place.(525 skill in both)
    If you will tell me how you need it tested what you need notes on I would be happy to help !!!

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    1. By all means keep track of which recipes you learn and what skill you were at when they unlocked. I'll take all the free data I can get if other peeps want to share =) If you have enough green tea leaf to waste, try making the 500 pots before you train Zen Alchemy and see what recipes you can learn without leveling. You can also use the 500 pots when they are gray to unlock new recipes without skilling up. That might give us a better idea of which recipes are hard-coded to which level ranges (or if they aren't and it's completely random).

      I have another Alchemist I can use as well. Unfortunately she visited the trainer before the research process was implemented, so she already knows some of the recipes. I can't use her to refine my 525 discovery dataset, but she should still be able to contribute data in the 550/575/600 ranges.

      Feel free to post your findings here or drop me an email to kaliope at crafterstome dot com. Here's a sample of my notes if you're not sure what to send:

      Unlocks: 529 > Master Mana Potion | 579 > Desc.Oil (gray) | 580 < Darkwater.Pot (green)

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    2. No problem.
      I actually have tons of Herbs as well as ore.
      Been flying thru all the zones marking all the nodes on my Gathermate2 to transfer to Live and send to the addon developer.
      I can try the alchy before zen.
      None of the new copies have done anything but log in and out (just did them 2 nights ago) so if you need any other pre-Zen info let me know.

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  5. Side note I have fresh copys of all my crafters.
    So if you need any other info let me know.
    BS/JC
    Tailor/Chant
    LW/Skin
    Eng/Mine
    All at 525 skill.

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    1. Thanks - that's good to know! Right now I'm blanking on which professions I'm stuck on. I know I wanted a non-Gnomish Engineer but I think I can borrow one from my son. Also, my Engie Gnomie doesn't have Mining, so if you can figure out a way to test those darn Goggles that would make an excellent guest post =)

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  6. I have tested the goggles. If I am correct, "googles only" mine nodes have a kind of mist around. I am not sure on that since I cannot remember how it were before but I see some nodes with mist and some without. I am 89 now. As soon as I reach 90 and get flying mount, I will leave my googles in the bank and go out to check things.

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    1. I've seen that weird mist but I had no idea it might be hiding nodes. I thought it was some kind of questing/phasing thing. I'll have to investigate that on my rogue, she's the one sporting the goggles atm.

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  7. Wowhead's minimum skills are extracted from the recipe items associated with the spells. However those recipes were only for private testing, not in the playable game. The data is based on a bad assumption in Wowhead's code, and should not be trusted. The client data contains no restriction on when a recipe can be learnt, only values for the skill at which it turns yellow and grey, with green calculated half-way between those values. So the only way to gain accurate minimum skill data in this case is to observe discoveries. Observe, because the discovery mechanic is all server-side. Wowhead will collect that data through their looter once MoP is live, but probably not before.

    If there are further restrictions - such as a maximum number learned in each skill bracket, from a much wider selection of possible - those will not appear on database sites, since everything defaults to the lowest observed case, which here would be 525. Of course I don't know if that is the case: We know from certain Inscription discoveries that they can be capped by a skill that is different to the skill required to do the research. As such "525+" is probably the safest notation until a few more people have tested this out.

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    1. I was afraid that this was going to boil down to a group effort scenario. We'll just have to make it work. I sometimes wish the Wowhead data wasn't done in such a cumulative manner, but I know if they did a full wipe for each build that would introduce a whole new set of problems.

      I think we already have anecdotal evidence that gem transmutes may be 550+ instead of 525+. Hopefully some additional testing from Desade and my second toon will give us more solid data on that.

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    2. I just found out that my database won't allow special characters in the skill number field. So I guess I'll be sticking with lowest number.

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  8. I can help too, I recopied my first druid to try herbalism again so I will keep notes this time. I didn't take many when I tried it randomly the other day on my scribe/alch: "Make Master Healing Potion until 535. Then based off what learned." I apparently was feeling very lazy, sorry.

    El seems to be right that inscription is crazy stupid easy right now. I was able to do it without a hitch using ~18 stacks of herbs.

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    1. Awesome, I look forward to getting more data on the Alchemy recipes =) Every new set should let us hone in on the minimums for each recipe. I still need to go through Desade's info and add it to mine!

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