Where did the tanks go?

I had a discussion with my buddy Squorgov the other day that left me thinking. He said Warriors don't want to be tanks anymore, because their Protection tree is weak compared to the hybrid tank classes. Squorgov is a feral tank, so I assume he's more in touch with this stuff than me. Plus, I've actually had folks ask Kaliope to tank, even when I tell them I'm a Resto (healing) druid. So I suppose there could be some truth to this idea that true tanks are in rare supply.

Kaliope actually has a tanking set and enough talents in Feral to be a passable tank. I know enough about how tanks function that I understand the job, the only problem is I've had so little practice that I have trouble executing the proper maneuvers when things start to go south. I also don't do well on multiple targets -- again, not enough practice. I actually tanked a Botanica run for some guildmates and we completed the instance, but in that scenario we had good CC and everyone knew to be careful of their aggro and not pull it off me.

Needless to say, I was feeling a bit underconfident when I decided to take a chance with my 62 Warrior Kayree and try to get into a Ramparts run. But she needs the practice, and I thought perhaps at level 62 no one would be super picky about my technique. I was in the LFG system for maybe 10 minutes when I got plopped into a group which had apparently already started. Luckily they hadn't done the first boss yet because I still needed to do the quest in there. The group composition was certainly funky too, we had a hunter (61), rogue (63) and two shammies, one of which was our healer. We barely managed to take down the first boss and proceeded to have a couple of bad pulls when our healing shammy dropped out. Can't say I blamed him for that actually. Then we drafted a 61 paladin to heal, which I was a bit worried about. But that part worked out pretty well, he was doing fine with healing.

The big issue was that the caster shammy, rogue and hunter kept jumping in with the DPS as soon as I pulled. I couldn't get one sunder off before everyone else was wailing away on my mob. So I was using Taunt like mad to keep stuff on me, which wasn't making me too comfy. Plus the only CC we had was sap, for some reason the hunter refused to trap. Well, I shouldn't say he wasn't trapping, he was was using the fire trap... fat lot of good that was doing us. On a good pull they would kill my mob before they started on the next. But there were also times when I would see the rogue immediately go after a second mob by himself and the hunter pet would be tanking a third. And I'm thinking - what's wrong with this picture? If I were that paladin I would have been tearing my hair out, quite frankly. I still can't figure out how we managed to kill everything without wiping more than we did.

Suffice it to say, by the time we got to the last boss I was convinced we were doomed. Kaliope and Krystella both did Ramparts in the first month of release and saw many more failures than successes on this fight. So I didn't have much hope for this wacky group who didn't understand tank aggro or focus fire or selective targeting. We ended up wiping twice on the dragon, pretty much within a few seconds of him touching down. The even bigger problem I saw was that our healer was blowing all his mana before we even got to the dragon part. So on the third try I asked everyone to please go light on DPS for the first three mobs and let me take all the damage so the pally wouldn't have to waste his mana healing them back up. And amazingly, we killed the dragon without anyone dying on that third try.

So I walked away from this run feeling a bit vindicated in the fact that the one pull they did my way, we actually had a clean fight. Not that I was perfect either, but at least I understood what needed to happen. It amazes me that we can be 2+ years into this game and still have that many players who have no concept of group mechanics. I mean, I realize we have lots of kids who play and probably don't group much, but this was the majority of my group who didn't seem to have any idea how a good instance run is supposed to be executed. Under the circumstances, I guess I can see why so many warriors are going the DPS route. When no one respects you and the job you do, it's very tempting to just abandon ship.

28 comments:

  1. Kaliope, the scenario you describe is precisely why I never PuG instances with my tank. I simply don't have the patience to educate another group of scrubs about how to run an instance. Fortunately I'm in a Karazhan raiding guild full of players who know their role in a group.

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  2. i Know your situation all too well, in order to be a decent tank it takes practice and leadership. I am a better then average tank, but i started playing the game with being a tank in mind, ive leveled 1-67 with protection/tanking in mind. you have to set the pace, decide when to rest, decide how to pull the tough mobs, and do your best to handle the dpsers that have no clue how aggro works. though im not 70 yet i know that raiding will be eazier then pub instance groups, im on a low pop server, so you just take who you can get, im not even 70 or geared for it yet but im raid leader and main tank for kara.

    a tank is a hard thing to be, money is always a problem, mainly because your so gear dependant, if you see an upgrade you get it, it is always worth it. generally all classes are even, but enhancement shammies are diffrent, they'll pull aggro off you alot and theres nothing you can do, just get a hold of the rest of the group and hope he heals himself

    as far as ramp, the first boss you tank the guy and let them worry about killing the healers before they dps the boss, something like run up shield slam the boss, shield smash one healer and have the hunter icetrap him, dps the other healer while you take the hits from the boss

    rule of thumb with a damage meter, if you are above anyone but the healer in damage as a tank your group will fail

    good luck as a tank, its a hard living, people pester you constantly

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  3. Im the MT in a guild who is at Vashj now and there are many reasons why tanks are quite rare. (i speak about the warriors now)

    First of all as a tank you have responsibility of the speed and performance of the group. 90% of the time you pull (even in raids), even as a warrior without instants which makes it much harder. If you fail, the group/raid fails and thats kinda hard to play with 100% all the time.

    But one of the major reasons is that you are completely useless outsides of an instance. With a def spec you cant do anything. Farming...oh farming, didnt kill a mob outside an instance for over 1 month now cause its the most boring thing i can imagine. I dont get much damage, means i get no rage, means i cant deal damage (and even with enough rage the damage i deal is not enough). I just dont understand why a warrior in a def spec isnt allowed to deal as much damage as a druid tank, i dont get it. A druid has one of his "best" farming speccs if he is tank specced but as a warrior the most boring and slowest one for farming.

    Another reason why tanks die more and more is the "why we tank?". If you make a tank your goal is not to do 5man instances, mostly you wanna raid (to get gear and progress FTW) and if you raid you have a guild who supports you and you dont need to join a pug (never did that since tbc and will never do that again). If you are just a bit deeper in karazhan (which is really not hard) you dont have to do any 5 man instance anymore.
    People who like to pvp have NO reason to do instances anyway cause all the gear they need is in the BGs or arenas.

    I think those 2 are the most important reasons why warrior tanks are quite rare atm but i hope that will change with the next addon since Blizz announced they wanna increase our damage to have more fun.

    Im very bored with my warrior outside an instance, i dont do daily quests, dont do pvp, not interested in 5man instances or farming any rep or money. I just join 3 raids per week and log on every day to chat with some people and selling some gems (cause of Jewelcrafting i dont have to farm any money happily).

    I really hope they will fix that and i wanna excuse me for grammar and typos if they are many cause i had to write that fast (in work atm ;_;)

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  4. This is what kills me about MPORGs... the effort just to find a good group. A couple of buddies play only once a week, always together... and that works great.

    In my old guild we had one group of 4 people who lived together... always very smooth.

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  5. Traffkor hit most of the main reasons. However, I will say that it really doesn't require a prot war to handle 5 mans on either normal or heroic. You can have a good hybrid war in tank gear and still fly through any 5 man provided he knows what he is doing and the rest of your group doesn't suck. In short...

    Skill > Spec

    However, in raids, a warrior can only be a versatile tank if we he is heavily specced in the prot tree. Otherwise, the best that they can hope to be is a slightly watered down rogue in plate. This is especially true if you are learning a new boss.

    The only other reason I can bring to the table is pvp. A lot of warrior raiders that I know also enjoy pvp and the arena during their spare time. Prot wars are useless in pvp so they are either forced to respec regularly or not pvp well at all.

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  6. I know that pain for sure...

    My original char was a paladin who wanted to tank. But I found the class severly lacking. Not to mention that pre TBC you could only tank undead instances. After the 2.0 we had a good space for pally tanking since Scholo and Strat undead sport mostly undeads. But after TBC i made myself a Dranei warrior, Whyrm on Ravenholdt, and I havent regretted it once.

    Tanking was always my prime goal. And even if I leveled as fury I respecced at once when I hit 68-ish.

    I felt the dps drop severly - but not nearly as much as I would have expected. The +10% dmg talent on 1h-ers make up for some loss from other abilities.

    I still go through ordinary 70 mobs like a knife through butter, not a red hot one though - more lilke a luke warm one. :)

    BUT the great up-side with tanking is not about damage. It is about standing there in-front of a huge boss blocking, parrying and dodging. We dont kick 'em in the teeth - we hold them in their nose hair. Its painfull but not really hurting. ;)

    One other upside is the availability to find a group. Always some one calling out for a tank to an interesting dungeon in LFG.
    But here you have to be careful.

    Some things to look out for:

    * Guys in full arena gear - they havent had a need for aggro managment for a loooong time.

    * Guys without a guild - why would you wanna play with someone who dont like to cooperate?

    * Hunters/warlock without a pet - If you are a "pet" class, why not use it?

    * Generally anybody who jumps all the time - only 13 year olds are that impatient :)

    * "I only want rep" - these guys usually wants it to go so fast that any hickup will make em jump ship in the middle.

    Man - I write more here than on my own blog... Feel free to visit me. Brand new - all about parenting and gaming.
    http://daddygamer.blogspot.com/

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  7. Hey now, I know people that are 60 something that jumps all the time. :)

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  8. I have a 70 warrior that is protection and I continually say she is semi-retired for all these very reasons. I leveled up a warlock to 70 and am working on a priest that are both a lot more fun to play. The trouble is I have a very special place in my heart for my first toon, the warrior. I'm so conflicted...

    Love the blog and the website Kaliope. I'm always singing it's praises when I get the questions "What are the mats for...?" or "Where do you get that pattern/schematic/recipe?"

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  9. I'll come to this discussion through the eyes of a feral druid tank who doesn't participate in raids above 5-mans and does PuG so my opinions will vary from warriors but I'd imagine paladins might face a similar situation.

    Few PuG's seem to understand that tanking is a function of the group and not just the warrior/druid/paladin. You're PuG there is a classic example however they did manage to teach you the single best lesson you can learn when tanking in PuG's.

    1. Demand to be group leader.

    I'm not kidding either, as the tank you just have to have that ability to tag the mobs on a pull. You need to have sap/trap/sheep marked, primary focus fire, secondary target etc. Most of all, they have to give you time at the outset. I like a slow 3 count preferably. You need multiple mobs hitting you for the rage generation to be greater than your rage expenditure which is the optimal position and particularly important against bosses with an aggro wipe because you'll need to rush back in using rage to re-grab that boss.

    2. "sorry" goes a long way to mitigating a wipe. You will stuff up. Make a bad pull, not get the aggro off the healer quick enough etc but own up to it quickly and you'll be surprised at how it can gel a group.

    3. Shaman are at the moment the absolute worst party member in a PuG. They have little to no aggro dump and their dps has taken a large spike in both enchanement and elemental and it's not controllable. Sometimes you'll get that rare shaman who plays a smart 5 man, and you'll know it by them not using Wind Fury to begin with. Also, you can inspect their weapon and if they're running around with speeds 2.5 or greater (enhance spec), they're going to be trouble. Yes their DPS takes a hit but 5-mans are a different beast and they're all about control. Fire mages can also be a handful. :)

    Anyway, they're just some things I've noticed as a feral druid.

    -illaraphaniel

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  10. great thread! I've always been a 100%holy priest, now 0.8 bar away from lvl62...just couldn't keep my eyes open anymore last night;-) I also seem to be a very rare breed of character. I must admit that I'm now one of those healers who leaves after the 2nd wipe if I see that the tank refuses to equip a shield...a watered down Rogue in plate is bang on the nail! I later ask these 'wannabe tanks' to join me when my team needs DPS ;-)

    yeah, a tank is sometimes to blame for a wipe, but I think that very often its the hunter/lock who watches his pet (or his pet watches him), or the rogue who thinks (s)he can ignore the team and solo a mob, or the mage who draws aggro and runs straight into a patrol...Then there's my 4000+ crit heal that a lvl60-65 tank just cannot compete with ;-) I think that I might have enough +int for now

    It's a tough job that we both have! I still PUG very often, and keep doing so because, well TBH I need the help outside instances as well....one of you tanks complained about not being too effective outside an instance...welcome to my world!!! remember that Q near Hellfire Citadel, where you have to burn those buildings? I managed 4 of them pretty easily, but just couldn't get to the barracks before my torch burn out(5 min)! I'd creep around killing 1 small group after another, but was just tooo slow! A warrior who I stuck with in the Ramparts (nice guy, and willing to learn about Defensive stance and sunder from a priest) helped me do it in moments:-)

    nice blogspot:-) one of the few WoW related sites that my firewall hasn't blocked yet!

    Xcal

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  11. I guess we all have horror stories from PuGs, I could write several pages worth featuring bad players from every race and class ;)

    Let me just say that from the DPS side (Mage), I've played with tanks that had no idea how to generate agro, who stood there hitting the mob without a single Sunder and then big surprise at the first hint of DPS the mob comes straight after me. So it's not always the DPS fault that we get agro :)

    But I'm surprised about the sentiment in several posts, that Protection Warriors are boring. Sure, you kill mobs more slowly. But doesn't being the center of every run and raid make up for that? Isn't logging and getting a group for a run within 1 min of joining LFG worth it?

    Apart from my 70 Mage, I also play a 70 Holy Priest. Sure I leveled him as Shadow, but as soon as I hit 68 I switched to Holy and haven't looked back since. I love being the 2nd important guy in the run, everyone is always worried that I won't get agro (if they are a good group :)).
    Sure, I haven't done tons of quests and I spend very little time killing mobs alone, too slow and boring compared to my Mage. But while my Mage can spend 20 min in the LFG channel, my Holy Priest always gets a /w within 5 min :)

    My guild's Main Tanks get first prio on all relevant loot that drops. People appreciate the effort that they put in and go to great lengths to show it. Sure we wipe a lot, but it is almost never something the MT can do something about, we would be stupid to blame them. As for PuGs, if a PuG gets bad, leave. As a Tank, you can get a new one in 1 min flat, at least on my server :) Frankly I'm surprised Kaliope stayed with the group that she described, she must have more patience than me. A Hunter that won't CC? lol...

    I use my Mage to farm Marks for Aldor rep for my Priest, mats for crafting and gold. Some things I can't do for my Priest and he has to do himself. Well, I have a novel suggestion for you guys - get a nice guild mate to help! Even better, find someone that needs the same quest/mob/whatever, and join forces. In my case, I did some quests with a friend who has a Prot Warrior. Let me tell you, a Holy Priest + Prot Warrior = non-stop killing and tons of fun :)
    One time we were doing a quest in Netherstorm and fighting mobs that heal themselves (Pala Ghosts). My friend wanted to try out a new Polearm only he had low skill with Polearms. I told him to go ahead. Well, we pulled 2 mobs by mistake but because we're both 70 and he's Prot, I had no problems healing him. But on the other side his damage barely scratched the mobs and the y kept healing themselves! The result? We spent ~25 min fighting just those 2 mobs, my friend skilled up from ~200 to ~350 and I read nearly an entire chapter of Harry Potter :D
    Moral of the story, sometimes low DPS is good :) Or more seriously, get a friend or guild mate and do quests together. Alone, you'll be gimped, slow and annoyed after 5 min. Together, you'll rock :)

    Oh and last point, I think it was Tobold that wrote in one post something I agree with, post-TBC there are a lot more Holy Paladins. This means that many Paladins that used to tank pre-TBC, no longer do. Add to that the effect of Arena rewards on the Warrior population (fewer Prot specced), and I think it's clear why Tanks are the most requested players in the LFG channel. But I sure hope Prot Warriors don't give up on the spec because it's "boring"...

    Cheers,
    Solid

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  12. Wow, lots of commentary on this post! I have to say that I love my tank, she's adorable with her green pigtails and I get many comments on her look. The main reason I'm pugging is because my guild is mostly 70s now and they've already helped out my other two toons so much, I don't feel it's appropriate to mooch help for Toon #4. Plus, I assume I'll get more valuable tanking experience working under "hardship" conditions than if I always run with my very professional guildmates.

    The main reason I stuck this group out is because I really wanted to finish the quest in there and get my blue shoulderpiece. And we were actually taking stuff down, so despite the badness it was still working and I wasn't sure it would be fair to dump them just because I didn't care for their technique. Although I suppose there's something to be said for educating them a bit, I'm sure we would have gone even faster with proper technique.

    I feel that I'm kind of at a disadvantage as a group leader, which I know most tanks handle. I've run most of these dungeons as a healer, and I paid no attention to strats. I mostly stare at health bars and spam my heals to keep ppl alive. With my rogue, I just wailed on skull (star, triangle, whoever) and sapped when asked to. So having to step up as the dude who knows what mob to take out first/second/etc is a bit beyond me. How do you guys get the hang of that, just run something over and over until you memorize it? I'm finding that once I've hit a place 2-3 times I pretty much have the loot I need and can move on to a new instance. Plus we've got 2+ instances for each level range, I can't imagine having that many strats in my head and keeping them all straight. Well... maybe that has something to do with my head being crammed full of crafting tidbits!

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  13. I generally don't worry about specific abilities of mobs in specific dungeons, but designate targets based on the mobs presumed class. Priority is generally healer, caster, melee, using CC first, then kill-targets after. So say you've got a 5-pull with 1 healer, 2 mages, 1 rogue and 1 warrior, and you've got a sheep and a sap available. Sap one mage, sheep the healer, then kill the other mage first, followed by the 2 melee, then clean up the CC'd ones. You might need to make small adjustments on a pull by pull basis, but I've been pretty successful following this basic strategy.

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  14. As a run leader, all I really need to know are which mobs can be CC'd and how, and boss abilities. I use X-perl UnitFrames to see the class of a mob (in case it isn't obivous) so I know if it can be sheeped/banished/sapped/frozen. I'm also not shy about asking if I'm not sure.
    As for bosses, I remember most, and use wowwiki to refresh my memory.

    Specifics of trash are usually trivia - interesting to know but not something you *have* to know. I never remember *which* exact mob fears in the Steamvaults. All I know is to pull them to me, not run to them. That way, it doesn't matter :)

    Certain features of some trash/pulls I just remember because I've wiped on them so many times :) My advice is to go through an instance one or two times are a non-leader, while paying attention to more than health bars ;) Then, give it a try as leader. As long as you're careful and use common sense, you should be okay.
    Unless your PuG sucks.
    Which it usually will... :)

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  15. I'm trying (not too well at the mo) to take on leadership...I've also been a 'watch the health bars and forget the rest' type of healer until recently. I like the idea of going in 1or2 times as a member before taking on leadership. I like my tank to keep aggro of the boss and as many trashmobs. My DPS goes for healers first...yeah, I know how important we healers are ;-)

    I've not had any other priority list. I just create the skulls/star etc at random. I love Kevin's priority list...I will work on it!

    I've started taking leadership because my PUG's suck. I try to give them an education, but I don't know enough about the various classes to really direct them. I think that a good leader should have a good working knowledge of all classes in the team.

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  16. I have a Holy pally too. Done many insytances as Heal-bot only looking on bars poppin up and down. Scholo, Strat or UBRS where no different from each other - just the loot.

    Thats actually the main reason why I created my dranei warrior when BC launched. I wanted to be more directly involved in the situation. A bit of a hands on aproach instead of a Lay on hands aproach ;)

    Learning the mobs is quick when tanking. The names are often a dead give away. Sirens - well something sonic, maybe a fear? Crusaders - melee for sure, might heal... Like that. And after a cpl of runs they are no prob any more.
    If I have the time I read up on the place first. Since being an involountarily casual player - I play "World of Wishcraft" a lot. I wish I could do this and that - and reading is the next best thing. And possible to do from work :)

    One tip is to ask your fellow party members what they CAN do. Can u silence that mob? Are u good at OT? (Especially BM hunters love this).

    Ask a good gear rouge to take out one clothie mob them selves and he will love u the rest of the instance because of the faith u put in him.

    Another way to do it if u have over dps guys is to assign the skull to them. Let all dps take out skull and to go all out on him. They will have a blast (litterally) and u will have time to build aggro on mob 2, 3 and even 4 if necessary. :) Just be sure to assign a squishy cloth guy to the dps to kill - things may go south otherwise.

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  17. I got so burned out leveling my warrior I barely play him, let alone run instances. The few times I have run instances lately they've been awful, awful PUGs. So I put him in mothballs again and went back to playing in AV with my holy pally.

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  18. While Shaman are a high threat class and if your pugging they can be a huge burden. But the benefit of a well played shaman shouldn't be over looked my friends shaman performs exceptionally well, he can swap roles from full out dpsing to kiting to off healing with ease. Having ktm/omen on both tank and shaman really help so the shaman can know when to pull back and either throw some off heals or swap targets. Have ran heroics with a shaman of each spec, a mage and myself and had just as smooth a run then if I had 3 cc.

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  19. Greetings,
    I am a retired lvl 70 Protection Warrior for instances and PuG's. There was a day when the warrior class had some respect and was a wanted and sought after class for any type of dungeon run. These days you have the Feral Druid and HealAll Paladins that take our places.
    Yes, there are a lot of new people leveling their arse's off to hit 70 and as a result they skip a major content of the game and dont learn group mechanics. Like the other fella said, "why teach another PuG how a group is to be run?"
    So... where did this protection spec tank go? I went to a retirement guild away from PvE and went MS for PvP. I hung up my sword and shield and pulled out the nasty 2hander axe.
    Oh, I should mention gear as well. What prot tank in his right mind get +stam and +int +spellcrit plate armor? That is all there seems to be out
    there. Unless your exalted in multiple factions to make your own BoP plate armor once you grind you blacksmithing to 375.

    I ranted and raved enuff, cheers to the new Tanks!

    Mags..
    DovieAndi Se TovyaSagain
    Eredar server

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  20. Back in the day Mag talks about Feral Druids were laughed at and scorned for being completely worthless. They could barely take a hit and cat form did less damage then a hunters pet. Blizzard realized they really messed up the class and improved it.

    At least now there are 3 tanking classes. There is no reason why there should have been 4 healing classes and only 1 tank. Warriors had it made and never had to work hard at being good at something.

    Now that the playing field has leveled off and they are only slightly better in most situations(Sometimes Druids are better), the whining has begun.

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  21. I personally like the fact that there is a bit more competition. I have played as a tankadin too. And if we prot warriors think we have competition - you should see it from the other side...

    Itemization is also easy as warrior tank: sta, def, parry,block armor etc. Tankadins have to combine the above with +spell dmg, int, spell crit etc. So being a viable tanakdin is much harder work for sure.

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  22. I would agree, as hard as it is to find tanks who will run instances, it's less difficult to find a feral druid or paladin who appreciates being asked. One of our feral druids just tanked Kara through to the Prince last night and he was very proud of that accomplishment. It's not unusual for us to have more druid tanks than warriors in Kara. As a warrior I'm not bothered by this because I know I will still be wanted in groups.

    What I will agree with is that leveling the warrior can be painful and I fully support the idea that warriors should be able to put some of their points in Arms or Fury to be an effective solo toon. Druids don't have to be full feral to solo effectively, nor does any other class in the game that I'm aware of. Kali leveled all the way to 70 as a 50/50 resto/feral spec and I had no problems healing instance runs or questing on my own. For some reason tanks have to put most or all of their points into a DPS tree in order to kill at a reasonable rate, and I don't particularly think that's fair. They should have the same hybrid utility that most other classes enjoy and from what I've seen in my handful of re-specs, it's basically an all or nothing proposition for them. I can see why they're frustrated when most other classes got a boost in versatility via the talent trees and warriors did not.

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  23. Actually to be able to level effectively a Druid must spend at least 41 points in the feral tree to get mangle. Before that a Druid's dps and threat is not very good. A hybrid style play is very hard to get now. Without Mangle a druids threat and DPS is a lot lower and makes it harder to level up. A feral druid is really a Tank/DPS hybrid while a prot warrior is 100% tank.

    My warrior is 35/5/21 for leveling which is a really great hybrid spec. I can dps for questing great and tank any normal 5 man instance. It seems that the warrior can do both without any issues.

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  24. It will even get better. Rumors say that Blizzard will take a look at the prot warriors to make 'em more versatile. It was about upping their dps so they/we dont have to respecc to go to the arena.

    I have a druid friend who have gone more or less full feral for tanking and invested the rest in cat-abilities for dps. Hes mostly epic now - although only with crafted and some Kara epics. He sports 15k hp and 23k amror at the moment as bear. While going cat (he got separate epic dps gear in same range) he has 9k hp, 15k armor and almost 3k AP. He has not gimped his tanking for the dps, and I must say that kind of dps is totaly awesome for someone tank specced.

    If we could gete ven somewhere close to that as warriors I would be happy. Warriors have a advantage when tanking bosses but thats the only thing we are better at I'd say. Trash tanking is what dr00ds do the best.

    This brings me to another point. Crafted gear.

    As a warrior there are few choises of gear to craft that is of epic quality. Helm of Stalwart defender and Bracers of the green fortress is teh only two that come to mind (I know about the gauntlets - but they suck). Most other classes can more or less get a full epic shroud out of crafted items. Especially cloth'ies with Spellstrike set etc.

    This is bad. Most times in heroics I am the worst equipped even if we are all new to heroics. And to get a spot on a Kara team as a MT you have to be best of the best. Wich is hard inles beeing there before.

    There is a real gap gear wise for warriors.

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  25. Seems that there are really two sides to the issue and neither side will agree. :) But that is alright that why we discuss things anyways.

    Druid crafted gear is pretty limited too until you get into SCC. There is the 3 piece blue tanking set (Heavy Clefthoof), which is pretty much the Druid equiv of Fel Steel. Both sides have to work to get pieces to fit into the rest of the slots from quests, instances and pvp. I would say Druids have it better pvp wise while warriors are better crafting wise due to useful tanking epic patterns (Helm of Stalwart defender and Bracers of the green fortress) and instance wise due to the much better sets aimed at warriors. To be a geared druid tank one must pvp for the Veterans items and even better do arena for the armor pieces.

    I agree that Prot warriors should be able to do some sustained dps at least for grinding and pvp. They also need to add some PvP gear for Prot Specs. But the drops in instances are great for warriors while they are often lacking for a tank druid and are aimed at hybrid resto play. For example, take the first class set. Bold versus Moonglade. Moonglade is crap for tanking and dps, in fact for all Druid roles. But the Bold set is great for tanking.

    The main role a druid should play is offtank. Feral Druids are the best offtanks while warriors are the best main tanks. This is because they can tank an add or two and then after the group takes them down the Druid can switch to dpsing on the mobs the MT is tanking. Warriors are great now with tanking multiple trash mobs if they spec for improved thunderclap and then use it.

    There is a gear gap for everyone moving from the normal 5 mans to Heroics and Karazhan. It just takes some time and running instances.

    Tanks have a problem in that they must be well geared for an instance for it to go well. Warriors, Druids and Paladin tanks alike. It makes gearing up a lot harder for tanks. Another reason why tanks keep disappearing.

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  26. You know I have alot of sympathy for warriors but I have to say, you all don't listen much. As a 70 hunter I can direct tons of agro your way but warriors don't always communicate what they want. Warriors and hunters are a natural pair. A hunter can effectively shift agro and pull mobs. In fact the hunter is better equiped to make the pull. He can feign if it goes bad. I myself, always explicitly ask the tank what he wants me to do. Some warriors get mad if you send out your pet. What is it you want me to do with him? Others just run out and start attacking whatever they feel like and leave you to clean up the mess. Tanks who always use their signals and clearly communicate are worth their weight in gold.

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  27. @Bob
    Yep, the druids need to do a lot of PvP to get good gear. The problem in my eyes is that is not an option for a warrior tank. We have about two pieces of nice PvP gear and thats the Arenas Merciless Galdiator Shield wall and Shoulders. Another downside is that the SSC patterns for BS is BoP (not pattern but item crafted).
    Well, as I wrote above, it is hard in different ways to gear up fro druid and warrior tanks. Some crafted gear is better for druids but there is much more plate drops for warriors.
    The problem is not really the difference between types of tanks, since we dont tank together that much, but tanks vs. dps.
    A mage friend of mine is more or less all epic out of crafted gear and he rarley do any high end instances at all and never done Kara. If dps need to hold back to not pull aggro they have an even greater problem now when I am in blues and he is in purples.

    @John
    Well, I agree. My only problem with hunters is that they too often are used to going solo so they tend to forget to Misdirect/turn off Growl/over dps/are unable to chaintrap.
    I have to admit that many bad hunters have made me not really trust most hunters to be good until proven wrong. I am trying to change my ways by asking hunters before going in if they are comfortable with misdirection and chain trapping.
    But I do usually meet hunters, even in heroics, that dont have a pet with them at all...

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  28. I run a 70 hunter, and I would say that I catch the most flak from the main tank often (unless its my brother in law who's tanking 70 feral druid). I appreciate a good tank, they ask me to trap sometimes and I've gotten pretty good at chain trapping, in Arc the other day I had two mobs trapped at once, that turned some heads.

    DaddyGamer, if you have a hunter that doesn't have his/her pet out... thats just assinine imo, I enjoy the additional 100dps my pet puts out, and though I lose him in boss fights (the boss punts the tank, 3 shots the cat, tank picks up aggro... everyone lives) often and I still put up mad sustained dps, I'd never go anywhere... well except to capture a new pet... without my pet.

    I am leveling a feral druid, and a warrior... after seeing what my GM can do with his feral druid, he rocks! He can easily MT kara, my bro-in-law will start MT'ing kara, and as the guild reorganizes we will be doing Gruuls too. The reason I am leveling a warrior (not just for MS and arena's) is when we get deeper into end game content (BT) I'll have a warrior that can pickup tanking.

    Hehe, my two cents again. ~Demon

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